Monday, February 22, 2010

Taking advantage of downline's friendship and trust- for FAKE RECOGNITION

I do hope there are people who build the business with right values, because as far as I knew-my upline's way of building the business was/is- GETTING IT DONE ONE WAY OR THE OTHER. There was a new platinum last year in his team and God only knows how much they stocked up- as they dont have a team big enough to support platinumship and my upline himself, one of the PATHAGAN BROTHERS ;-) said-THEY GOT IT DONE ONE WAY OR THE OTHER.

Whom do u go and complain to - when more than 1 upline calls you on 30th night to get you to 7500PV knowing fully well that we had a grand total of 2 STANDING ORDERS, not a single retail order in that month and knows that ur credit cards are maxed out and loans you money so that u can get 7500PV done.

Whom do you go and complain to when the theme song for Ajmani team at that Go Diamond event was - "You got to Move it, move it"- Implying that you got to move the products you stocked up.

It wont be very surprising when one of the Pathagan brothers talks from the stage in a future function..abt "How their passion for the business does not diminish one bit inspite of silvers on their team, in whom they invested so much time, money and energy quits and how this business is all about helping and Impacting people...blah blah blah." We are not the first silver to fade away from their business and we wont be the last.

After doing all this, the sad/funny part is they will claim that intention was always right, that they believed that it is for our good (qualifying for go diamond event no matter what was supposedly for our good- dont know for whose good and with what good intention we were made to buy 1500-2500 PV for his other months of qualification.) They will always maintain that they thought that we wanted it so bad and that is why they recommended it to us. That this is how they qualified for first time and with the information from go diamond event- they were able to move on so fast, and they thought that we would also move on fast..yeah right.

These guys who claim that this way of qualifying is the right thing to do in private- if they have guts- they should talk about it in their cds, in their rallies- so everybody else can learn to move on faster. Why make such a passionate glossy stage talk and let the world think so highly of you. In fact I even asked this question to my sponsor- of course- he had no answer.

They have not stopped and will never stop. After we became inactive, my downlines are now stocking up products, so that they can reach new pin levels.

I guess this is the legacy/intangible values they will leave their kids- that cheating is perfectly OK, as long as your intentions are right.

Has Amway done anything about the orders they miraculously get on the 30th of the month- especially the 30th of August and March?? I guess in the world of Amway all of a sudden on the 30th of March and August and in the in between months- "God's hands miraculously starts moving in the IBO's lives" (that is IBO stage code word for stocking up products;-)). When Amway really does something about the miraculous orders they receive at the end of the month- there might be a possibility for lesser abuses.

If they want to do somthing about it, why dont they openly write against miraculous orders on their website and ask IBOs to contact them anonymously about abuses?? They can decide to take/ or not take action against the upline IBO based on the number of miraculous orders the upline has had in the past.

Month of March is almost here and there will be new diamonds, emerlads, platinums etc this year and there will be newer abuses. I think in stead of saying "Pledge for the flag" at the beginning of the seminar rallies, speakers should be asked to pledge from the stage in front of everybody that not a single person on their team- bought even 1 PV extra for their goal.


  1. Don't expect Amway to care.

    I told Amway how we were taught to fake out the computer in order to make our 50PV, they ignored it.

    I told them how our upline encouraged cheating by selling XS Energy out of a restaurant, and when the upline found out and kicked us out of their web site, and then complained to Amway, Amway said access to the web site and other tools is a "privilege" and didn't do anything again.

    Amway KNOWS their co-founder, Rich DeVos, spoke out against the ATS (Amway Tool Scam) in 1983, then did nothing, and even told me 10 months AFTER they shut down the ATS in the UK that they don't care how much the upline charges for the tools (among other examples).

    This is one disgusting company.

  2. exeagle,
    the big increase in orders at month end is not necessarily nefarious. I've been personally responsible for generating several thousand PV in legitimate customer orders in the last 2 days of the month, trying to reach a goal. I've also looked at the PV and realised that if I ordered something I wanted, today, rather than next week when I'd planned, it will bump me a bracket and save me money. I've seen the same with downline too.

    Amway can't possibly be expected to monitor that.

    However, it's interesting to note that Amway can and does do "audits" for platinum qualifications, but I don't think for Silver. Perhaps your upline is aware of this and thus has multiple silvers qualifying in order to break a leg rather than a single platinum who may fail audit?

    If you ever want behaviour like this to change, and I certainly do, then you need to come clean and report it to Amway and the IBOAI.

  3. Hmm. One of the things I have always admired in you is that you have always been very transparent. Too bad, they exploited you for their personal interest. Can't you stop your downlines from the Raghavans?

    Our uplines have always told us to think long term. They have cautioned us that the best way to get negative is by stocking up products, dragging people, misleading people and they have always stopped us from doing any of the above. Too bad, you had such a bad one. Worst is being your friend and exploiting the friendship where you need to feel guilty.

  4. I see what IBOFB is saying, and I have to agree that Amway cannot possibly be expected to monitor EVERYTHING.

    However, then they need to seriously re-examine their policy on how these things are dealt with, and the secrecy behind it.

    Until Amway makes meaningful change, and exposes others and their sanctions for flagrant disregarding of the rules, then most people would presume they simply aren't serious about stopping the shady business practices.

    The optics of it from an outsider looking in is that Amway simply says, "Stop doing that", but winks their eye at the same time because they profit from it.

    Amway's biggest problem is Amway. Has been, and will be until they REALLY decide to change.

    The IBO's aren't helping their cause, but Amway certainly isn't either.

  5. rocket,
    Amway doesn't profit from this kind of stuff, if they have to pay out bonuses that shouldn't be paid out. They actually LOSE money. The new $500,000 Founders Diamond bonus is crazy money to pay out when you really crunch the numbers on a Diamondship that has no depth (aka no Platinums, but six 25% legs--there is a difference). That $500K bonus is IN ADDITION to all the other bonus money (Performance Bonus, Leadership Bonus, Emerald Bonus, Diamond Bonus) that Amway pays out on the BV.
    NORMALLY, a Diamondship has legs (maybe other than their sixth leg that put them in qualification) of Platinum, backed by Platinum, backed by Platinum. And some Emeralds thrown in there as well. So there is lots of depth, lots of volume. In that scenario, the $500K is supported (meaning there is profit) by all the volume moving in that Diamondship.
    But in a "shallow" Diamondship, when you include the $500K money, the bonuses paid out exceed any profit made by Amway selling the products at IBO cost.

  6. ex-eagle,
    I do appreciate you sharing your experiences in detail. Those of us who are current, active IBOs, we have the most to gain by having any and all abuses stopped.

    I want the "rank-and-file" IBO to remember that this is a business first and foremost. The purpose is to generate a profit. Yes, we can have fun. Yes, we can have great friendships. But I do wish IBOs would make decisions with their heads, and not their hearts, particularly when it comes to product purchases.

  7. I highly doubt that Amway pays out so much in bonuses that they suffer a financial loss. If you truly believe that, I have shares of the Brooklyn brigde that you might be interested in.

  8. Bridgett, understood.

    In MLM companies like Amway, the payout is included in the price of the product, and the IBO price is set with having to pay out the bonuses in mind.

    This also contributes to the perceived higher prices in MLM (generally speaking)

    At the end of the day, if volume is moved, Amway profits.

    True, they may have to pay out bonuses needlessly, which they should be denouncing, which they aren't. But they still make profit on product, no matter the payouts involved.

    In this day and age, secrecy is something that's difficult to achieve.

    It just seems like Amway focuses more on keeping things in house rather than actually solving the problems, and the problems are obviously still rampant.

    I think we are both on the same page with this, just with different perspectives.

    I believe you want to see habits like this stopped. So would I.

  9. Have you approached talking to anyone of the big pins like Kumar or Ajmani? Usually that is what they say in the CDs. If you find something dishonest or inconsistent with the teaching, you need to report to next level of upline. Have you made an attempt? How did they respond? We all have the assumption that if one messes up like the Raghavans(Suresh and Madhuri, Ramesh and Vasudha)atleast you should be able to expose them to Ajmanis. If not atleast Kumar. Him being in the IBOAI board, I would think he really cares. Maybe it might help in your case (if you haven't already). I did meet some of your teammembers in WC. I hope there is some kind of justice served in your case.

  10. Ex Eagle,

    Don't trust anything ibofb or "Bridgett" say.

    First, they drag you through the mud:

    and now they want to be your "buddy." I think you've experienced enough of this behavior with your upline LCKs to have ANY regard for their opinions.

  11. joecool,

    Aren't you in the accounting field? Do the numbers yourself.
    Take 7,500 PV times the PV/BV ratio times the percentage of bonuses. Just use the Performance Bonus % and the Leadership Bonus %. You don't even have to include any Ruby, Emerald, or Diamond bonuses to see what I'm talking about.

    Then, multiple those by 6 legs and by 12 months. Then add $500K. Got that total? That's the money Amway pays out.

    Now take 7,500 PV times the PV/BV ratio, divided by the BV/IBO cost ratio. Multiple by 6 legs and then by 12 months. That's the money Amway receives for product purchases.

    Compare those two numbers. And then comment.

  12. rocket,

    Ditto what I said to joecool.

    Amway loses money by paying out such bonuses to "shallow" Diamondships.

    What ex-eagle is describing is happening, are shallow, immature, Diamondships.


    Now, and this is only speculation on my part, perhaps Amway is offering so much cash these days so that they have the "right" to audit and investigate more thoroughly these businesses to which they are giving such money.

    They should always be "allowed" to do such a thing, but now it would seem like a good "excuse" to be more diligent in their efforts.

    Just a thought.

  13. Rahul,

    You don't understand. The higher you go, the more corruption you find. Who has the most corruption? Rich DeVos.

  14. So Bridgett, how many of these shallow diamonds are there? I suppose it's possible for Amway to eat a loss on a diamond bonus here and there, but they are not giving bonuses out because they love the diamonds.

    In the end, Amway is profiting. And that's what business is about.

  15. Bridgett, I'll take your word for it, but I still maintain that the prices are set high, and the corporation makes so much from overpricing to begin with, and it's rare that people actually achieve any significant levels (in North America) that the number of times it happens makes it negligible.

    Amway needs to police Amway, and demonstrate that it does so.

    The reason they don't? I have my theories. I might share them some time when I'm prepared to present information to back up my suspicions.

    Amway looking the other way is simply another example of strategic incompetence.

    They're awfully good at it!

  16. rocket and joecool,

    You are purposely missing the point of my comments. I understand why, since you are Amway critics.

    I am talking about bonuses IN THE CONTEXT OF EX-EAGLE'S STORY/EXPERIENCE.

    That is why I am here commenting on his blog. I am not here for the Amway critics. I have said, more than a few times, to both of you and other critics, that I do not care about you, and hence why I don't visit either one of your blogs.

    So AGAIN in the context of ex-eagle's experience, which appears to be a way to build SHALLOW DIAMONDSHIPS, Amway loses money.

    And because I seriously doubt Amway wants to lose money, I would venture to say that they would be inclined to look into such situations like ex-eagle's a wee bit more carefully, now that there is way more cash at stake.

    And why do I care? Because when I build a Diamondship, I want that $500K bonus to still be there, rather than it be taken away because of idiotic IBOs who are teaching such stupidity.

    Same reason why I want REAL customers to get free shipping and the 20% PV uplift. I don't want those benefits taken away because of selfish IBOs who are abusing it, and having their personal use products shipped to a family member, who they register as a customer.

    THAT is why I am commenting here, gentlemen.

    I am NOT here to get into stupid debates that we’ve had for the last 2 ½ years with you, or anyone else who has ZERO vested interest in the health of the Amway Business.


    Got it?


  17. Tex,
    Not necessarily. I have been in the business for 4 years. I have not been pushed around or manipulated to do anything which I do not want to do. I cannot find a single situation where I felt my uplines pushed me to do something which I do not want to do. So it depends on the lines of sponsorship. Mostly people who involve in all of these are not wide enough. So they put pressure on their downlines. My upline is about 15 growing legs. I have access to my upline Platinum, Emerald and Diamond. All of them are very transparent people. That is one of the reasons why they have so much retention in their team. They helped me become profitable within 6 months of my registration.

  18. Bridgett, I'm not purposely ignoring your comments, I would even go so far as to not disagree with them.

    What *I* am saying is that Amway knows this goes on, but they still make money overall because diamond happens SO RARELY in North America!

    If you are making so much per item (which they are) then it's really a loss leader type of deal.

    Again, my point is Amway is not policing themselves because they don't want to stop this type of behaviour! They profit from it overall!

    Unlike IBO's, Amway actually makes money through the movement of products!!

  19. Rahul,

    How much do your "transparent" upline Platinum, Emerald, and Diamond make from the tools?

  20. Bridgett,

    I agree with Rocket. Sure, Amway may suffer a minor loss here and there if there are "shallow" diamonds. But seems as if there are fewer diamonds in North America now than there were a few years back.

    And as "I said", if Amway were losing money overall, then they would stop this from happening, or they would alter the bonus structure.

    Amway has been around a long time. I'm pretty sure they are meeting their bottom line, even if there are some "shallow" diamonds here and there getting bonuses.

  21. rocket and joecool,

    Because of your myopic negative view of Amway,

    (on this blog alone, rocket, in the comments of the Feb 5 post writes, "I DETEST Amway.")

    it really makes no sense in saying anything more to you, does it?

  22. Rahul:
    I am sure you have heard many a times from Kumar about how he qualified Silver first time. Total duplication in his team, for sure. The only thing I could expect from him is fundas like- "Is your name Albert- why are you talking like Einstein- as if you have discovered that people do stock up products to buy pins?" or even better- "Arched Eyebrow look with the question- SO????"

  23. IBOFB:
    I do agree with you that all order at the end of the month are not necessarily- “nefarious orders”.

    But how do you explain “Miraculous orders” at the end of the month , in all 3 legs for 6 months for a Emerald in qualification or in atleast 2-3 legs for a diamond in qualification(assuming first time diamonds atleast have 3-4 solid legs- who qualify month after month).

    How do you explain that many times the interest free promotions for big ticket items- happen during MAr to Aug?

    The person I pity the most is not the new platinum who qualifies to be in the backpocket of his upline- but the PLATINUM (and his team) WHO HAS RE-QUALIFY SO THAT UPLINE CAN GO EMERLAD/DIAMOND WHATEVER. No wonder they have to talk abt delayed gratification forever.

    Why do Amway wait until somebody completes platinum qualification for audits? 1 or 2 months of such miraculous orders at the end of the month is not quite enough for them to do audit? See auditing after somebody completes Platinum is such a win win situation for everybody. A guy finishes platinum qualification by pushing himself and his downlines. End of 6 months –including the bonuses(which is nothing compared to money spent on getting the pin), he gets the pin, his uplines get pin ( and in case of Emerald and Diamond- significant system income from then on). Amway gets to report atleast the same or a little bit increase in sales– Then I guess they will proceed with their audits, and in the meantime the story repeats itself with some other new Emerald, Diamond and so on.

    Why cant they send an automatic email say for eg: like a congratulatory email to all newly qualified 1000PV and above and in the email also let them know if the IBO has any faced any situation with stocking up of products, they shld contact Amway.

    Well, I guess all these are all toooooo tough to implement and the easiest thing is to expect all low level IBOs to act right ( while of course being bombarded from the system abt submission to upline, not questioning upline, being part of upline’s goals inorder to grow, etc etc etc)

  24. Bridgett,

    It's not negative. It's looking at the big picture.

    Say Amway made a billion dollars (North America). They paid out 340 million as bonuses overall. Say there are 2 "shallow" diamonds. Out of the 340 million Amway paid out, 1 million was to these "shallow" diamonds. Less than 1/3 of 1% was money paid to "shallow" diamonds.

    Yes it is a loss. Yes, it may not be the best way to build a business.

    But did Amway overall earn a profit on the billion dollars in sales? Yes, I believe they did.

    Now if these kinds of diamonds became the norm and started to affect their overall profit, I'm sure the Amway accountants and managers would make adjustments to the payout or change the qualifications.

    What's negative about that? Those are simple business principals.

  25. Tex:
    I do know how much people make of tools money. Yes, my uplines have disclosed that and if you want to know the real amount, it is NOT substantial. For every CD which goes through you, you get 50cents off. This just pays off your mailing expenses if you have a long distance group. If it is a book, it costs like a dollar off. If you have several thousands of people, still it is not SUBSTANTIAL. One airline ticket beats everything. What I am saying is, it is just help someone take care of the shipping costs etc.

    Ex Eagle:
    Yeah, I have heard about how Kumar want Silver first time with stocking up. But he always mentions that he fixed his structure and never have to look back. But anyways you are the one who experienced it. You have also observed in person. I know you have been to Go Diamond weekend both Kumar and Britt. How many people were there from your upline Raghavans team. If they pushed people to get the pin, the # of people should be less.Since you have interacted with them closely,how many people have you observed attending functions. The # they say is about 40-50 for Platinums. So if you have three Platinums, that means about 150 people. If they do not have 150 people, we can say that it is ALL Lamaze PV which means that they are NOT actual Emerald..(just name sake!).

    In your case, would you be able to stop your downlines from getting hurt? Why can't you tell them directly about Raghavans to them. I did see them in winter conference with the Baghavans.

  26. Bridgett

    I DO detest Amway for many reasons.

    The prices are non competitive

    the opportunity is substandard even by MLM standards (sad)

    the products (because I don't feel they are all that great)

    the apparent corruption, such as in cases like this which Amway allows because they are still profitable in spite of these unethical business practices

    The reputation in North America, which further serves to demonstrate its a poor opportunity

    Do you need more?

    But you're right to think it's a great business opportunity.

    Darn, I wish I was as smart as people in Amway! Oh well, I'll just eke out a living somehow without Amway.

    Good luck on your road to diamond though Bridgett. I'm sure you'll do marvellously!

  27. By the way Bridgett,

    Funny how when you finally understand my point about Amway being complacent with the obvious abuses you then attack my character along with Joecool's.

    Classy. You're on your way to Freedom!

  28. And after the typical troll like appearance here, Bridgett leaves and doesn't return after getting thouroughly school. Probably because she has a myopic positive view about Amway and WWDB.

  29. Rahul,

    The CDs and books are only a small part of the profit, there are also meetings, web sites, voice mail, etc. There are several former Diamonds and above who disagree with your assessment of how much is made from the tools.

  30. Please refrain from mentioning "Bridgett" and classy in the same post. Thanks. LOL

  31. first off, no one is obligated to do pv for them to reach the next level. Its done willingly because it not only qualifies one to certain information discussed in Night Owls, but it creates a pull, your downlines see your growth and so does the team so momentum picks up. It also tests your belief and commitment level. If you honestly believe you will go diamond, then why is overstocking bad? I see teams at my open stuck in the same position for years because they are too use to not moving on with the whatever it takes mentality and the group picks up on that and so all you see is either really slow growth or no growth, because no pull was created!

  32. Anon at 10/12/11: People who dont move on (or overstock for moving PV levels) are better off than IBOs who give the impression of false growth. How long will the group last when the growth was really because a bunch of people overstocked. As far as information in the night owl is concerned, there is no new information after a certain point. Just a lot of ego bashing happens at these night owls and IBOs want to move on to feel good in front of their upline. Anyways all the best growing your group with your overstocking techniques

  33. Good point exeagle.

    Anon,If you build the business overstocking, then your uplines expect you to overstock you no matter what. If you tell them about your financial situation, they look at you saying "Arent you firred up about the opportunity? What is wrong with you? You might have done it once because you wanted to move onto the next level. But your upline wasn't ready to move on to next level (when you did the overstocking). Now your upline is inspired and expects you to move on (overstock).

    Anon, if you build it with no overstocking, more power to you. But the norm isn't that. Most people who go on stage always say "We did whatever it took". We did it till last minute..We wanted to do that for the upline" What does these words in English?


    How do I know..? Been there done that for the glory recognition. Finally became smart(after beaten up with guilt trips, treating like outcast)

  34. One of the following 2 things are true...

    1. You are stupid
    2. You act as if u r stupud

    U know nothing abt anything.anybody...just opening a blog is something like writing something on toiet walls and anyone can do that. If someone is successful, stupids like u and ppl like u always put something bad on the web. Its a classy example how things work.