Friday, February 26, 2010

End of the month- Miraculous orders

I do agree that not all the orders placed at the end of the month are not necessarily- “nefarious orders”.

But how do you explain “Miraculous orders” at the end of the month , in all 3 legs for 6 months for a Emerald in qualification or in atleast 2-3 legs for a diamond in qualification(assuming first time diamonds atleast have 3-4 solid legs- who qualify month after month).

The person I pity the most is not the new platinum who qualifies to be in the backpocket of his upline- but the PLATINUM (and his team) WHO HAS TO RE-QUALIFY SO THAT UPLINE CAN GO EMERLAD/DIAMOND WHATEVER. No wonder these guys have to talk abt delayed gratification forever.

All the miraculous orders sometimes do not necessarily also happen at the end of the month-For eg: When we went I think 2500 PV for the first time, we bought about 600-700 PV in the middle of the month. Upline's logic- when you are like halfway through your goal,you get the belief that you can accomplish it. Also how can you retail e-spring, icook, atmosphere- if you dont have them??? If you buy it by the middle of the month- can you imagine how many you can retail by the end of the month,(IN MY DREAMS FOR SURE- I NEVER RETAILED ESPRING, ATMOSPHERE, ICOOK as long as I was active in the business), imagine how you can promote these products to your team (NON-EXISTENT TEAM- oh Sorry, I shld be speaking right- UPCOMING FUTURE TEAM). And then in the next month of qualification- you would hear things like- oh you have only one Atmosphere in your home?? You shld have one in the living room, one in the bedroom.

Why do Amway wait until somebody completes platinum qualification for audits? 1 or 2 months of such miraculous orders at the end of the month is not quite enough for them to do audit?

See auditing after somebody completes Platinum is such a win win situation for everybody. A guy finishes platinum qualification by pushing himself and his downlines. End of 6 months –including the bonuses(which is nothing compared to money spent on getting the pin), he gets the pin, his uplines get pin ( and in case of Emerald and Diamond- significant system income from then on). Amway gets to report atleast the same or a little bit increase in sales in that fiscal year– Then I guess they will proceed with their audits, and in the meantime the story repeats itself with some other new Emerald, Diamond and so on.

Why cant they send an automatic email say for eg: like a congratulatory email to all newly qualified 1000PV and above and in the email also let them know if the IBO has any faced any situation with stocking up of products, they shld contact Amway.

Well, I guess all these are all toooooo tough to implement and the easiest thing is to expect all low level IBOs to act right ( while of course being bombarded from the system abt submission to upline, not questioning upline, being part of upline’s goals inorder to grow, etc etc etc)


  1. Ex-Eagle,
    What do you mean when you say,

    "...he gets the pin, his uplines get pin ( and in case of Emerald and Diamond- significant system income from then on)."

    What do you mean by, "from then on."

    Are you saying that an IBO in your LOA gets significant system income once they hit the Emerald and Diamond levels regardless if they fall out of qualification with Amway?

  2. Yes of course significant system income kicks in after Emerald and Diamond. Is that a surprise???? Even when they show they plan- they would talk abt how diamonds would atleast make 250K- conservatively 150k from Amway and 100K from system

  3. Ex Eagle, I'm 100% in agreement that Amway could be more proactive in monitoring this kind of thing. They can add it to the list of many many things I think they can do better :) That's one reason why it's important when things like this do go on that it's reported to Amway and the IBOAI. The more pressure to fix something, the quicker it gets fixed.

    With regards Bridgett's comments, I think she asked about system income because the standard practice these days is that it be volume based, not pin based, so if you fall out of qualification for the Amway pin, odds are you fall out of qualification for tool money too.

  4. I understand that "significant system income kicks in."

    But my question is: Do those who fall out of Diamond and Emerald qualification STILL get to partake in that "significant system income" even after they are no longer qualifying as Diamonds and Emeralds in the Amway Business?

    In other words, let's say a Diamond has four of their six 25% legs no longer qualifying. They are now a Sapphire in Amway and only receive bonuses that a Sapphire is entitled to.

    Are you saying that this same former Diamond, now a Sapphire, would still be entitled to system income that is reserved for Emeralds and Diamonds?

  5. So basically, upline was having their downline "buy" the pin for them?

  6. Well I dont know if BWW has same policy like Amway- system income based on volume and not pin. I have not heard anybody talk abt that.

    The impression they give is once you get to Emerald or Diamond- then significant sysetem kicks in and keeps coming. But if one does the math - an emerald/diamond without numbers is obviously going to get paid less(even if they get the emerald cut on cds, function ticket#s- that would be multiplied by the number of IBOs on their team)

  7. Bridgett,

    Yes, that is my understanding which has been indicated by numerous diamonds who've since quit Amway.

    Once you are a diamond, you qualify for the tool bonus, and you always will qualify for the tool bonus.

    Don't tell me this is a previously unknown angle to you Bridgett.

    Amway themself has admitted that some of the leaders make more from the system than from the movement of products. Remember those fake newsroom videos? It was in there!

    This shouldn't be news to anyone who hasn't been on mars in a cave with their eyes squeezed shut and their fingers plugging their ears for the past 20 years.

  8. Either way, BWW and the other LCKs are ripping off their downline:

    Amway has ripped off millions of people for several decades, to the tune of 10s of billions of dollars:

    Amway is a scam, and here's why: Amway pays out as little money as they can get away with, so they support the higher level IBOs ripping off their downline via the tool scam.

    As a result, about 99% of IBOs operate at a net loss, while the top 1% make several TIMES more from their Amway tool scam than from the Amway products. This was made illegal in the UK in 2008, but our FTC is unable to pull their heads out of their butts to stop it here.

    Read about it on my blog, I suggest you start here: and forward the information to everyone you know, so they don't get scammed.

  9. Remember when LTD (Larry Winters), and the Crowe's split off from BWW? Part of the controversy I beleive was over whether to compensate on current qualification, or best ever qualification. I'm thinking BWW still uses your "pin". A Diamond gets compensated like a Diamond forever more. Crowe wanted to switch it to current pin....

  10. The split was more likely over Winters, Crowe, etc., wanting more of the profit for themselves. The guys at the top get paid more than the others, so when they left, they were at the top. Simple.

  11. I do not know whether you are aware of this. Prakash and Smita are in Diamond Qualification. On Tuesday, they had a parade of new pins from their team. I also heard Ajit and Harsha have also started diamond qualification this month. In that case, do you think lot of people stocking up PVs and products? Have you complained to higher pins about the pressure you faced from the Raghavans. You need to do that. Who is going to pay for all the money you paid for the products. When would you finish consuming those products? If you can stop your downline getting hit from upline, I think you should send them this link. This will create more awareness about them. Maybe you should email this to kumar. I do not want your website to be yet another negative website which nobody cares. My understanding is, your reason for putting this website is to share your pain so that it can be a caution to people as well as this would set a standard for ibos to build the business right with the right values without exploiting friendship and pushing etc.
    Please do post more stuff. i hope they dont pay you or compensate you money so that you stop posting.

  12. No Tex, there must have been some serious philosophical differences, as well as a fallout over some events in the personal life of a MAJOR pin in the system at the time.

    I say taht as if it was just about the money, it wouldn't have been worth rocking the boat. While in BWW, Bill Britt and AMI were doing the production and paying for the overhead. Winters was having his own FED's and John Crowe is in Triple Diamond qualification, I don't think they were exactly starving for tool money.

  13. @Rahul, lets get real. No upline is going to come and "read this blog" come on. I wouldn't send it to downline's either. If Ex-Eagle is being honest, this blog is good enough, his story is being told openly, those that come across it can judge either way how to take it.

    Those diamonds you mentioned in qualification, where did you hear about it? Are they US diamonds, and who is their upline diamond?

  14. So it appears that within the BWW LOA, once an IBO hits a certain pin level, they receive "system money" regardless if they maintain this pin level in their Amway Business.

    Yes, as it has been mentioned , this has been going on in some LOAs for years. However, this is not how all LOAs are run. Even ones that used to run that way, no longer run that way.

    I wanted to get clarity of what is happening, in this particular LOA (BWW) and in this particular time (March 2010).

    Unlike Amway critics, I wanted to get clarification (which we still don't 100% confirmation, but it APPEARS from other people's comments that this is how BWW operates) rather than ASSume anything, and rather than make large brush strokes across all the world of Amway, across all Amway IBOs, across all Amway LOAs/Systems, and across all years since the beginning of time.

    Now, why is this a really important matter? And why should ZERO LOAs’ income be paid out the way it appears this particular LOA is run—the “once a Diamond, always a Diamond” method?

    Because four things happen:

    1) Upline teach their downline to build shallow, unprofitable, unstable Amway Businesses, in order to achieve Diamond, even if only for a nano-second. They are being granted system income “for life” and so there isn’t incentive, for system money, to help their downline build solid, long-term Amway Businesses.

    2) Upline “push system tools” even if such tools, which were originally designed to help build strong, stable, profitable Amway businesses, are not useful, helpful, or necessary in building strong, stable, profitable Amway businesses.

    3) Conflict occurs between currently qualified Diamonds and currently unqualified Diamonds, over system money.
    In the Amway Business, if a Diamond falls out of qualification, then the next CURRENTLY qualified upline Diamond (though they do lose FAA points) receives Amway bonuses.
    In the “once a Diamond, always a Diamond” scenario, this is not the case.

    4) The LOA, rather than being a SUPPORT to one’s Amway Business, now becomes IN COMPETITION with one’s Amway Business.
    If the former-Diamond still receives a “Diamond cut” of the BSMs (Business Support Materials aka tools) then their system money could start to exceed their Amway money. And so they will promote a BSM with greater desire and greater focus and greater emphasis than they will promote an Amway product. And then this increases the chasm even greater between their Amway compensation and their LOA compensation even more, thus continuing the cycle of imbalance.

  15. Agree with everything you say Bridgett. Along with my opinions, Amway treats your thought in the same manner.

    Not worth a hill of beans. Wanna know why?

    Because they still are profiting. They don't give a rip about structure, shallow, immature legs.

    Because they are still profiting.

    You ASSume they care. It's obvious they don't because its allowed to continue. Amway neither denounces nor deters this behaviour.

    I'm surprised an intelligent sounding person such as yourself is commenting as though this has just been revealed!

    Amway profits, so they don't care. It's rather obvious they don't care, isn't it?

  16. Ex Eagle, You say in your Feb 26 comment, “Even when they show the plan- they would talk about how diamonds would at least make 250K- conservatively 150k from Amway and 100K from system.”

    Is this typical in all of BWW--to talk about system money when showing the Amway plan?

    And is this happening now, today, in March 2010?

    Rahul? Can you answer this?

  17. Yes, at the end of the plan they would mention just briefly how much a diamond would make and as long as I were there, I have heard almost in all plans $250K as diamond = 150 from Amway + 100K from system

  18. The reason why I ask, is because this is explicitly not allowed by Amway. Mentioning system money potential income when showing the Amway Plan is called "enticement."

    It is called “enticement” because it lures people to “get on system” and partake “in the system” not because they think it will help them build a profitable Amway Business, but because they are looking at eventually getting a piece of the system money.

    So even though Amway clearly states that BSMs are optional, and it's written or recorded all over the BSMs (or it is supposed to be) some people are buying the tools, and attending the functions, and promoting them heavily, for the reason that some day they will generate income in this case, $100K from BWW.

  19. Yes, in BWW plans they say a variation of "and in addition to the Amway/Quixtar income, you become an expert, and you receive an additional income of about $100,000 annually from BWW".

    This is something that's started being said over the past 2-3 years, probably in an attempt to shed the stigma that they "hide" the fact that there's money in the system.

  20. Again, Amway doesn't care about their own rules Bridgett!

    All they care about is the fact that they are moving product!


    The rules are just there for show, so they can pretend to care. Obviously they don't!

    This complacency is a good part of what critics have been saying for a looooong time!

    The rules are a joke! They aren't enforced to any degree that would provide deterrence!

    Just tuning in are you? Welcome! Let me know if you have any more questions.

  21. Ex-Eagle,

    Are you aware that this is against Amway rules?

    And if so, along with all the other things you've written about, is there a reason why, in the 21st century, (where video cameras are the size of a freakin' cookie, and media cards are big enough to hold hours of footage, in order to provide something *in context*, so that there isn't any room to use the "out of context" excuse) why oh why are you writing an anonymous blog on the Internet?

    That is SO 1990s…and SO ineffective.

  22. Amway cares....though I suspect those that "knew Rich and Jay when they were kids" i.e. Britt & Yager are treated with kid gloves.

    BWW is now teaching stac...uh, I mean "taprooting". Why couldn't the corp have worked with Woodward to legalize the TEAM concept of depth building then?

    However, I'd say that Jim Payne and Steve Lieberman HAVE influenced Amway for the better. The two immediate examples are that you take 2010, and compare to 2005, politics and religion is pretty much done. Also, there is a A LOT more talk of products, the Amway corporation and retailing.

  23. Yeah Right Rules: That is the biggest joke. I think every single rule would have been broken when we were in the business. Biggest joke is some of the rules I got to know only after we became inactive.

    One of the main reason I started writing the blog was way we were treated once we decided to become inactive. So even though I wish now, I had recorded many of the PV milking conversations- it is just too late for that realization.

    And this blogging experience is for my own catharsis- like i am downloading all pent up emotions.

    I am not here for Amway to take a note of me or to be effective. And I am not expecting either that Amway or my uplines are going to change things for the better, because of my blog

  24. ExEagle:
    Amway always talks about the moneyback and satisfaction guarantee. If you attempt to return all those products, what did they say?

    Uplines make it in such a way that they really care about your success. Your experience totally shows the opposite. The way you were treated is really nasty. Especially giving recommendation about stuff like family issues etc. Attending leaderships in east coast was the only problem for me. They have never put pressure on me. But since the downlines are excited about going, I have to go. It costs quite a bit to attend 600 PV, Go diamond and too many meetings and less chance to implement stuff.

  25. Bridgett, that's a good question why don't people video these indiscretions?

    1. They would never do anything contrary to what their upline says. The lovebombing continues unabated.

    2. They are still taught that upline knows all.

    3. There will be no consequence known to anyone who does break the rules.


    5. People who realize that this behaviour is out of line generally don't continue attending functions because, you know, they aren't in Amway anymore!

    Insinuating this doesn't happen and it's up to this blogger (who isn't even in Amway anymore) to solve the problem and gather evidence to give to a corporation he's not a part of?

    Criticize his anonymity?

    THAT is so 1990's and THAT is ineffective.

    Actually, it's a page right out of Amway's play book! Good for you!

    Ironically, you Bridgett are someone who could do what you are saying, yet you don't because.......wait for it.......

    That doesn't happen in your group.

    You're on your way Bridgett! Can't wait to hear your diamond tape.

  26. Google Beta User,
    "Stacking" is not allowed. "Depth building" is allowed. There's a difference.
    Here is a post on Opportunity Zone from Aug. 14, 2007 regarding the two, as well as background as to what TEAM did (went from depth-building to stacking).

  27. Rahul,

    Regarding Amway's 180-day money-back guarantee...there is the 70% rule.

    Ex-Eagle is in violation of this rule by purchasing as much as he did. Amway isn't going to take back product in that scenario, even if they did honor a guarantee on "inventory" (which they don’t).

    In addition, all the bonus money, all the way up the line would also be in jeopardy if he told the truth about the fact that less than 70% was consumed and/or sold.

    Here's the rule:
    "4.18. Seventy Percent Rule-- An IBO must sell, at a commercially reasonable price, at least 70% of the total amount of products he or she purchased during a given month in order to receive the Performance Bonus or recognition due on all the products purchased; if the IBO fails to sell at least 70%, then such IBO may be paid that percentage of Performance Bonus measured by the amount of products that can be shown to have been actually sold, rather than the amount of products purchased, and recognized accordingly. For purposes of this Rule, products used for personal or family consumption or given out as samples are also considered as part of the sales volume."

    (The website is down until the big Web 2.0 launch tomorrow. Otherwise, I would've posted a link to this rule. Look in the Business Compendium and search "70%" when you can get on the site. Page D26.)

  28. I have a question regarding this 70% rule: For a long long period of time personal 300 PV which includes 50PV retail was promoted( of course upline's focus was more in teaching to report 50 PV as MCVR instead of actually doing the reatil- logic behind reporting 50 PV MCVR was that you bought from yourself and you are your own customer). MCVR is member client volume reporting.

    Just fake reporting MCVR was the norm till I think 2007, when retail was promoted. Even till late last year, MCVR option was still avaialble.

    Let's assume- that an IBO is a perennial 300 PV IBO with no other downline volume (which was/is the case with so many IBOs)- let's just assume he has 50 PV retail volume for argument's sake - isnt doing personal 300PV (50 PV retail volumen included or fake MCVR 50 PV) then violation of 70% rule- was the system violating the rule forever and promoting agrresively the wrong thing???? Has any upline ever called a downline perennial 300PV IBO and told them they are violating the 70% rule???

    What about the current promotion of 150 with 50 PV reatail - again for a new IBO with 150 PV retail or a perennial 150 PV- is this again violation of 70% rule- since if 70% of products must be sold- wouldn't that be 105PV.

    Again if you are an IBO who did 100 pv- , without any downline volume or retail, you will still would get a bonus cheque, even though you did not report retail through MCVR -that was the case till i was active- there were talks that of making 150PV a minimum PV level for IBOs to get a bonus cheque from sep 09- that was of course postponded.

    As far as I am concerned Rules and Amway dont coexist.

  29. I read the 70% rule again- "For purposes of this Rule, products used for personal or family consumption or given out as samples are also considered as part of the sales volume"

    So a person can buy 300PV worth products every month for personal use and use it all for personal or family consumption- and as per this rule- personal or family consumption will be considered as part of the sales volume (meaning retail volume)?

  30. This comment has been removed by the author.

  31. Ex-Eagle,
    Disregard my last comment. I didn't see your post at 2:40 pm.
    Will post another comment.

  32. "So a person can buy 300PV worth products every month for personal use and use it all for personal or family consumption- and as per this rule- personal or family consumption will be considered as part of the sales volume (meaning retail volume)?"

    All retail volume is sales volume, but not all sales volume is retail volume.

    Sales volume is ANY movement of product--personal use, samples, retail customers, other IBOs.

    The purpose of the rule is not to makes sure a certain amount of volume is sold to non-IBOs.

    The purpose of the rule is to prevent inflated Performance Bonus brackets, and inflated pins.

    Basically to avoid what has happened to you.

  33. So, a person could buy let's say even 7500 PV and argue that, that was all for personal or family consumption and it does not violate 70% rule- Assuming of course the person has a hugggggge family.

    What is the point of such rules, which have endless loopholes?

  34. Pointless rules exist because Amway doesn't care.

    They make markups on every product they push out the door.

    the rules are there because they have to pretend they care.

    But they don't.


  35. EX-Eagle,

    Sure, one could say that they bought all 7,500 PV for personal use. But why would an IBO lie like that? What is the benefit to the IBO for buying all that product that they don't need?

    The rules are there to protect IBOs, so that they can point to the rules as a way of "kindly" declining, when their idiotic upline tells them to do stupid things like buy twenty freakin' thousand dollars would of stuff.

    For all those IBOs out there, get this and get this good:

  36. Yes IBO's. Bridgett is right. Your contract is with Amway..............

    Who doesn't care if you break the rules, as long as they are making a profit from the products you buy for yourself but say they are for customers.


    What a great business........

  37. Ex-Eagle said, "Again if you are an IBO who did 100 pv- , without any downline volume or retail, you will still would get a bonus cheque, even though you did not report retail through MCVR.."

    That is correct--That an IBO receives a performance bonus on their personal use, regardless of any retail activity.

    So if the IBO has a group volume of 1,000 PV, let's say, and
    they've done zero retail, and
    let's say their personal use is 67 PV,
    they will receive 12% of the BV of that 67 PV.

    What they won't receive, if they have not sold 50 PV to non-IBOs, is any downline differential money. THAT money goes straight to the Platinum, by-passing all upline in between.

  38. That is why uplines teach you right when you get started, to do MCVR, ship your personal purchase to neighbors to have the retail volume.

  39. Hmm ExEagle, the loopholes are getting bigger and bigger. I have decided to keep the tools to minimum. First step to get out of this so program.

  40. I don't know why your upline taught you to ship personal purchases to neighbors in order to "create" the retail volume. Your upline doesn't benefit financially by you by-passing the Customer 50 PV rule. They get any money from you doing that. You're the one who'd get the downline differential (if you have downline running volume) monies, not them.

  41. Yes, now that the rules are dissected thoroughly (ad infinitum) we can now safely conclude that all kinds of rules violations go on quite often.

    The question that still overshadows the entire discussion is whether or not Amway cares about this, and what they actually do about it.

    They obviously don't worry about it, as long as they get their percentage from the products they sell IBO's.

    The rules are broken all the time.


    Unless of course it's trying put a cork in their business practices and utilizes their dispute resolution process.

    Then they care about the rules.

    What a joke.

  42. Has Amway ever denied an IBO of a bonus for non compliance with the 70% rule?